my maid of honor speech for my sisters wedding!
14 years ago
Monday, December 15, 2008
Blood-Sucking Pest!
Donne uses a flea to persuade a woman to commit the ultimate Renaissance sin -- to have premarital sex with him. Although a flea may be an unlikely "wooing" tool, Donne makes a logical argument and also demonstrates skill in modifying his argument based on the female's actions. "The Flea" concludes, however, before we "hear" from the woman. Do you think Donne was effective at wooing his lady friend? Was she simply playing "hard to get"? Or do you think the female was repulsed by his crude attempts at flattery and simply gave him the cold shoulder? Explain your response in detail.
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Donne was effectively about to woo his lady in the poem. the main hing holding the lady back from having sex with the man was her virginity. She was afraid that she would become a changed person after committing such an act. However, Donne is able to persuade her into thinking that she would remain the same even after wards. He uses the flea to show her this. The flea is a mix of both the man and the woman, or it could be seen as their offspring. Nonetheless, after the women kills the flea and spills that "innocent blood", Donne interrogates her and asks her whether or not she feels any different, and she proclaims that she doesn't. The reason that his particular aspect of the poem is so significant is because Donne was not expecting her to kill the flea, but even after she does, he makes it seem as if he did know she was doing to do that. Thus, Donne manipulates his lover in a way that many men couldn't. He makes her feel as if she is no longer innocent, thus making her eager eager to "do more".
Even though the symbolism of the flea is grostesque, I can't argue with John Donne. He and Marvell were so persuasive and had such good arguments that i would really be stumped if i were the lady of interest. Like honestly, if your man was standing there and proved that kind of point, would you really be able to come up with a rebuttal? I don't think so, and I know for a fact that i wouldn't be able to. There would be a lot of "uhhs" and "ummmms" in that response. Donne is such a quick responder and makes such a logical argument, that i would have to agree with him. He must have wooed her because otherwise the poem would have continued until he got what he wanted. The female was probably repulsed, but i think she realized she wasn't going to get away with the cold shoulder.
the poem was hysterical!!! i think it worked. for some reason, every time i think about the speaker i imagine romeo from the new version of the movie. they were young lovers (13 was it?) but he made everything so serious and grown up and that was attractive to her. Like we discussed in class, everyone wants to feel like their love is special. even though it is a flea, it's the simplest thing they know of at that time (god knows they didn't have alllll the biology concepts we have to study today) and it uses such a simple thing to bring out the actual complexity of their relationship (or the one he wants to have). I don't think it was just the flea that would have won her over, but all the other aspects he uses in collaboration to bring out his point. I don't want to give away too much because I will be writing my essay on this poem (my fave in the packet) but I must say he was extremely persuasive in his argument, and since we are guessing this girl is a peasant (because clearly, miss winkler, they are in a stall of a barn having sex) she's probably not too bright and doesn't have a s much to lose as a girl a little higher up ho would need that virginity card when factoring in a noble marriage.
Well, I was convinced... not really. His argument is really weird, any women who thinks that because a flea bit both of them is the equivalent of having sex is an idiot. Maybe at the time that would make more sense but if not, come on. He was a good thinker though because even when she squished the flea he was able to continue on with his persuasion. Girls of the time were much less educated which explains the seemingly elementary level of understanding. Now adays I highly doubt that a girl would be "woooed" by this argument but it may have worked then.
I thought that it made for a humorous poem, but it seemed to me to be more satire than an actual logical argument. Maybe in other circumstances is would have served better. However, using a bloodsucking flea as an analogy to condone and convince someone to have premarital sex - what is and should be an ultimate act of love - is crude (and in this case humorous). I don't know if she was repulsed, but I don't think that she was convinced either. I think that the argument is a stretch and shows that he does not value the act. She "squashes" the idea.
Donne was very effective in using the flea in his poem. The flea is so simple, but it makes the poem unique. Since Donne used a flea the speaker was able to come up with some pretty clever reasons as to why the woman's virginity meant nothing. A flea allowed him to say that their blood was already mixed, inside the flea, and therefore they were one body with the flea. This then presents the argument that if she were to kill the flea then she would me killing the speaker and herself. This is when the woman trys to take a stance because she does end up killing the flea. She seems to be more brave than other women of her time period, I don't think they would have continued to withstand his persuassian any longer, but she did and she took action. I also would not expect this from a woman, especially during that time because I don't think most woman were very fond of killing even if it was a flea. But, even after she kills the flea the speaker reamins more powerful than the woman, and using the flea was certainly a helpful tool in getting what he wanted.
I think Donne was effective in wooing the lady. However, I think that she was still a bit hesitant and decided to stick with the "safe" decision. The flea idea was really good though, because it showed the lady that sex was really nothing and that it would be okay to do it with the guy. I mean really, if you were that lady back then, fleas were a common [for lack of a better word] object, which also meant that sex was also common and shouldn't be though about [like, over analyzed]. It's a very persuasive argument, and I agree with Katie when she said that there really wouldn't be a good response to this. The girl wouldn't really know what to day because it seems like a logical argument, so there's nothing to disagree with.
*say
I found the imagery within the poem to be amusing. Donne took a flea, a simple and slightly disturbing creature, and created an extremely convincing argument. I believe that the women did end up giving in to his requests for sex, but not necessarily because of his argument. Although his argument is extremely strong I get the feeling that she was toying with him to see how far he would go to get what he wanted. Even if this was not the case, his argument was very convincing. He displayed to her how she would not be changed after sex while also using guilt as a way for her to give in to his requests. He balanced and mentioned his arguments in a manner that seemed logical rather than demanding. In doing so he was most likely able to convince her that she had nothing to fear.
One of the reasons I believe she gave in to his desires by her own free will was the way in which she handled the situation. She killed the flea which he had just made such a symbol and yet she was still with him. If she had killed the flea in scorn of his attempts of flattery she most likely would have then left him alone. Instead it seems as if she was still there with him because he continues the argument. In my opinion this indicates that she was playing hard to get and teasing him. She killed the flea to see how far he would continue his argument before she gave in to him. He may have seemed like he was in charge of the situation, but I believe the only reason he gave such convincing arguments was because he believed her to be playing with him. His arguments may have been sound, but she it seems as if she gave in to him on her own free will not because of the flea.
I believe Donne was effective in getting his point across to his lady friend here. He starts off his argument saying that the flea is a mixed of their two souls. They are only sharing a part of who they are, she is not doing anything sinful. The reason why the lady rejects his proposal for premarital sex is because in societal and religious standards, premarital sex is a sinful act to commit. She is afraid to lose her virginity before marriage because it is not accepted. However, I’m not sure whether she is afraid to lose her virginity because she is, in personal terms, afraid of changing, or she wants it but it will be a shame based on what others will think of her if they find out. There is some sort of boundary here blocking her from accepting his offer. It could be personal or influential reasons.
Then, the narrator goes on saying that the flea is a symbolic figure of marriage. Their blood and souls are integrated as one. That “one” could mean a newborn in their life. He then continues on discussing that sex whether it is premarital or marital will always be noted as a spiritual and sacred act to unify two people who partake in a relationship.
What makes his argument truly effective was when he pointed out that if she kills the flea, she is committing a sin worst than what she believes about premarital sex. She will be killing three people. First, if their blood in the flea is symbolic of life and soul, she will be killing a newborn. Second and third, since the flea is an integration of both their souls, she will be committing homicide and suicide. (Wow hectic persuasive argument there). She’s basically killing her whole family, her future life, their potential marriage temple. Also, if she kills the flea, she will spill her virginal blood, and therefore, she will not be a virgin anymore. He is trying to make her think twice that she will not lose any honor by having sex with him, but she will be lose her honor by killing the flea. (A.k.a. just have sex).
He also tries to reason with her to not take virginity as a significant feature in her life. He uses the flea to lessen the importance of sex in the grand scheme of life. He tells her that sex does not have the power to take away innocence or life from her. She will be the same person as she was before after having sex with him.
If I was the women I will find his argument using the flea as his rhetorical device effective to certain degree. But I don’t find the flea attractive or “wooful” (is that even a word?) for the sake of this argument. In my opinion, he is convincing me by scaring me and making me feel urgent about the consequences that will come after if I kill the flea and not accept his offer. He is saying that I will commit three murders if I kill that flea, it’s more like a life and death situation here, than wooing me. He equates the flea with blood of three souls, and the death of those souls if the flea is killed, not very wooing here. I didn’t find this poem very flattering because it sets a negative and pessimistic view on the consequences from resisting his offer. He lures her through this more than through love and a positive light. He makes her feel guilty if she backfires him, so therefore, she will grow weak in her stance, and accepts his offer. This is why his stance on the flea is very effective but not very flattering.
iiiii happen to think that Donne was effective at "wooing" his lady friend. First of all, he had some pretty decent arguments. In a harmless, flirty tone, he let her know that them having sex would be no big deal, and no one would think any less of her. He then points out that the flea is a symbol that they've already "mixed blood", so they might as well proceed to sex. The lady, acting coyly, threatens to kill the flea. Donne then takes on a more desparate tone and pleads that she doesn't by guilting her that she'd be killing their marriage bed which is their temple. He claims that she'd be killing three people by killing the flea, the flea, Donne, as well as herself. We know the lady is simply playing hard to get because if a woman were seriously repulsed, she wouldn't bother to sit and listen to his arguments, never mind actually playing into them! Anyways, by doing so, and killing the flea, she kills his arguments. Impressively enough, Donne takes on a stronger and more passionate tone and completely turns his argument around again in his favor. Therefore, I think it's safe to say she'd fall for it.
You gotta admit,Donne had a very good and effective point. You can't make an argument against it. One would be at a lose of words, and at this point, the world of reason and logic within the girls mind could have turned upside down. I do not believe, however, that she was playing hard to get at all. I think that she was confussed between what she was brought up to believe and what Donne was telling her. And if Donne did eventually get it, it would be out of pure impulse and without thought. Donne's strategy would be perfect if he only wanted a one night stand. But after that, the woman in the poem would have been deeply troubled and maybe even scared.
I think Donne was pretty effective too. I like to hope that maybe the lady he was wooing was smart enough to see through his tricks, but maybe that's being a bit too optimistic. Just the fact that he was able to use a flea to do this is amazing. They're pretty insignificant little creatures, so the way he used them to his own advantage should be applauded. By using so sophisticated an argument, this lady was most likely not some peasant girl. She most likely understood him, but we don't know enough about her character to make a sound judgement. She might have been playing hard to get because she was in a "cloistered" room with him, but it might have just been coincidence. Either way, Donne is skillful with his words, and I wouldn't be surprised if the lady said yes.
Considering the time period and the level of education, Donne was definetely effective. He managed to find something insignificant to which he could apply their dilema. Their blood mixed in the flea so they've basically already had sex, so there's no point in thinking about it anymore. When she continues to refuse and squishes the flea, he quickly changes his argument, claiming that she has now spilled her virginal blood and yet feels the same. So her virginity is no longer part of her argument. He takes away that feeling of innocence that she had. If that was her only concern, then she probably would have given in to him.
I believe that Donne was most likely effective in wooing his lady friend. Usually trying to convince someone to have sex with you by bringing up a dirty blood sucking flea would probably only “turn on” some freakish gross chick. But the way that Donne uses the flea he creates a very persuasive argument. By implying that by the flea having the blood of both of them, and in a way this has already connected the two of them together, almost giving them a reason to have premarital sex. The way that Donne uses a flea is almost shocking; his argument is pretty logical (and humorous) and could be very convincing. I think that Donne is so sharp and quick witted, that even if this continued on past where it ended, he would have convinced her to sleep with him anyway. I never thought that a flea could help to woo a women, but in this case, it really does seem convincing and I think he got her to have premarital sex with him.
Donne's use of the flea was practically ingenious in this situation. He took something that others might have found repulsing and could have overlooked, and used imaginative comparisons to make a statement. I believe his lady friend was playing "hard to get" but he probably had won her over. The main obstacle stopping her from having sex with him was the information her conscience carried from the world around her. At the end of the poem, Donne's speaker tells the woman that she really will be the same person she was before, and that from sleeping with him, she would lose just as much as she did by killing the flea, which was nothing. I like to think he won her over only because his ideas sounded like they would have some good logic behind them. It's like one of those things were if you actually think about it, the situation makes sense. (Although if I were here, I would seriously question his real motives.)
It seems obvious that Donne's plan was ineffective. This is because the woman literally killed his argument (that they essentially had sex together because the flea bit both of them) ... the flea. Even if she did go have sex with him after that she still rejected what he was trying to tell her. The woman was probably no different from the other women during the Renaissance period; they wanted to preserve their virginity. So, it was probably a done deal even before he came up with metaphor that she was not going to do anything with him. Instead of it being the cold shoulder or playing hard to get it was more like a personal promise at the time.
Eww no! It was humorous to read, but I don’t think it was all that effective. He used a blood-sucking parasite to describe their relationship. How far did he really think he was gonna get? She obviously doesn’t want to sleep with him, otherwise, why would she have killed the flea? If she had truly wanted the sex he continually offered would she have destroyed the reason for the act in the beginning? His argument is flawed as well. He is under the presumption that its only her virginity stopping her. But why would she put herself in a position to be coerced into sex if she wanted to remain a virgin?
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