my maid of honor speech for my sisters wedding!
13 years ago
Wednesday, December 3, 2008
Is Black Comedy Really Comedy?
(This one is for you, Erik.) "The Reeve's Tale" is considered black comedy -- a genre of comedy that pokes fun at serious issues. In "The Reeve's Tale", rape becomes the subject of the "comedy". In contemporary society, we similarly have television shows, movies, and even comedians that use a version of this same brand of comedy; race, religion, ethnicity, age, gender, and sexual orientation among other subjects replace the subject of rape. Can this and should this be considered comedy? Why or why not?
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23 comments:
I think that Black Comedy should be considered comedy...cuz it's funny. I don't think it's offensive, as long as it isn't meant to degrade anything or anyone. Sometimes, we have to also poke fun at ourselves. You might hear me make fun of myself :) for being short once in a while and that's no big deal. Everyone has to make fun of themselves to make a matter seem..umm...less monumental.? (can't come up w/ a better word). For example: short stature. Really, could I go on with life if I never laughed at myself when someone tells me a short joke? I'd be miserable!! The same thing with Black Comedy. I think that Black Comedy is mostly used just to entertain. The comedian is never really taking a shot at a certain race, religion, ethnicity, etc. It's funny because we know it's not offensive, even though it might sound like it. Get it? BUT I have to say that tragedies or disasters should NEVER be involved with Black Comedy. Can you imagine someone doing a stand-up show where he/she says: "What was the last thing going through Mr. Jones' head when he was working on the World Trade Center's 90th floor?
The 91st floor." (I got that from the internet) REALLY? That's not funny. Anyone who says that or think it's funny is going to be RIPPED APART. 9-11 is never going to be something to joke about. Neither will the Holocaust, Assassination of Lincoln/Kennedy, etc.
So all in all, Black Comedy is funny to a certain extent. It shouldn't be meant to be degrading, and should only be used to make light of something (in a non-offensive way).
Okay...but you just opened Pandora's box. Obviously the 9-11 joke among other subjects are off-limits to you because they ARE offensive. But, just as obvious, someone out there DOES find it funny or else it wouldn't exist. You may not be offended by short jokes, but another person may make fun of 9-11 but draw the line at short jokes. And is that really wrong? We all have our personal boundaries we refuse to cross, but those boundaries are different for different people. Therefore, the only safe option is to say it's okay to make fun of anything and everything or nothing at all...limiting it to anything else opens the door to personal bias. And no, I'm not the anti-Christ who laughs myself to sleep about 9-11 -- I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
I want to build off of what Miss Winkler posted. I think that black comedy like so many other things in life, is relative. It depends on who your audience is, what you are joking about, etc. I remember at training for being a diversity day facilitator, the topic of raicist jokes came up in discussion; this is a form of black comedy. Ok, so let's say that you make a joke about Polish people but you are Polish. Does that make it okay to say that joke becuase you are Polish. If Marielle made a Filipino joke, would it be okay for her to say becuase SHE is filipino (14 Marielle, 14)? LB, the head ladt, said that that is being racist. I dont know if that is true. It is really hard to say.
However, you cant lie and say that you have NEVER laughed, giggles, snickered, snorted, smiled, acknowledged a racist joke/ some kind of black comedy. It is everywhere in today's society and it is hard to ignore. Comedians ( if that is what we are calling them even though they use balck comedy which is the issue at hand here) like Dave Chappelle, Dane Cook prob have used some kind of black comedy in their routines and people go crazy and they are big fans.
To wrap things up, once again, black comedy is relative to what is going on in the room, in the town, in the world, and in a person's life. If everybody experienced rape, divorce, bombs, guns, terrorists, war, religious persecution, murder, then no: black comedy would not be funny. However, since many people havent experienced these things, they make jokes. If you laugh at black comedy, then you laugh at it. People cant control what you find funny; the only thing that can is your own conscience; if you feel in yourself that it is a horrible thing that was said, dont laugh
You make the call.
Going along with what Marielle was saying, I believe that black comedy should be considered comedy....to a certain extent. as long as there aren't any wrong intentions, there's nothing wrong with that type of comedy. First of all, if you go to a comedian's show, you go with the pretense that your going to be made fun of. For example, a stand-up comedian Russell Peters, pokes fun at his own race, but that's what comedy is all about. If people were constantly offended by comedy, then what would be the point of it? It's still important, however, to realize that there's a limit to comedy. I mean, if it's evident that someone is strongly hurt or affected by particular joke or statement, then don't keep mentioning it, but if there are no hurt emotions, then there's nothing wrong with comedy.
I also believe that comedy in general changes with time. What was seen as funny in the time that The Canterbury Tales were written may not be considered funny. For instance, if rape was considered "entertainment" in the Reeve's Tale, that was most probably because women didn't have as great of a role in society as they do in modern time. In today's day and age, women are held up on a much higher pedastal. Perhaps this is why rape or abuse is more of a tender issue rather than entertainment/comedy.
Going along with what Ms. Winkler said, I can totally see where it is necessary to have either no boundaries at all for certain types of black comedy, or simply,a rid of black comedy altogether. I mean, sure Marielle may not be offended by short jokes, but i may just happen to know somebody without any legs who can't help being short. Now seriously, I'm guessing that you just laughed at that little comment (regardless of how corny it was), because black comedy, unlike ordinary "why did the chicken cross the road" comedy, is for the most part, unavoidable in our society.
If black comedy didn't exist, we'd either be a society filled with regret, or a society too absorbed in the concept of acceptance to consider the serious issues at hand. Comedy is our way of diving into these serious issues. Take for example, the recent election.
Now for me, a majority of the information regarding the candidates, sadly enough, came from SNL. And regardless of how "corrupt" (can't think of a better word) that may sound, it really did help me to see our nations issues in a new light.
As far as being considered comedy, I really think it depends on personality. Now for those "Anti-Christ" personas that supposedly laugh themselves to sleep, of course most of us would feel rather offended. But then again, we never know who may be just as offended by a short joke or even a joke on the election from SNL.
Black comedy, whether we accept is or not, it a part of our society. And like many other issues, it's up to us to simply ignore those comments that may offend us, and luagh off those that appeal to us. Now of course, I'm not saying that we dont have to right to take a stance on any insulting jokes. But we have to keep in mind that unless we model our lives exactly by Christ and refuse to ever laugh at any issues that may in any way, shape, or form offend somebody, we can just as easily be targeted for a controversial joke.
I am definitely understanding and agreeing to what you guys have all said, but i really think the comedy needs to draw a point somewhere. I know a lot of people that use jokes to kind of take away pain they are feeling, or to cheer them up. I'm pretty sure not every joke affends someone. but then again, i didn't really understand that feeling until i made a retold a racist joke that i heard, and then a person came right at me with another joke that really affended me. I like jokes because they add humor to life, but i don't like jokes because they can really do serious damage. But what's the point in living in a robotic structured society doomed of boredom. Telling a joke is like telling a story. The message gets distorted, and you probably wouldn't be telling the same story towards a different audience. I know for a fact that a story you tell to your friend about the really "romantic" evening you had with ur boyfriend, would SURELY not be the same story when u tell ur mom about the "nice" time you had. And we don't tell stories to people we don't know just like we don't tell jokes to them. You don't know their lives, their mind set, their pain, or sometimes even their etnicity. I'm not going to go to Hartford and start cracking "african american" jokes.
You can do whatever the hell you want, but you better be prepared to deal with the damage. You can't always say ur sorry. Don't be a perpretrator! If you can't say the same thing to everyone, then maybe think about keeping your mouth shut?
Just a thought..
On another note, i honestly didn't find the Reeve's tale funny. I didn't find it offensive (perhaps because im not a carpenter or a miller?), and idk i think we've heard far greater of black comedy today, so i don't think its really much on the comedian scale.
However, if you want to make it fall under the Black Comedy category, be my guest. We all have our own intrepretations of what is offensive and what's not really hurtful. I, personally think terms such as "gay" and the "r" word are extremely inappropiate and hurtful, and i would not use them. But it's in other people's regular vocabulary. So i guess it's up to you. We can find examples of hate everywhere, but without it, where would we even stand?
(sorry for the tangent?)
I really don't think "rape" is funny. I'm sure if you knew someone who had been raped, you wouldn't be laughing at all. It is very serious, it is a crime, and it can be very detrimental to someone's psyche. While we do occasional laugh at people for their looks, ethnicity, or religion, i don't think that can be compared with a brutal crime. One does not chose to be raped as they may chose to believe and practice a religion. I understand you can't chose your physical features or ethnicity, but they don't threaten your sanity. Chances are, things of those nature will not haunt u at any given moment in your life. There really is just no way that you can make rape a funny thing by todays standards. However, in Chaucer's defence, sex was viewed very differently back then. Sex wasn't supposed to be a pleasurable thing, but purely for making babies. Many women were apprehensive about sex altogether so "rape" was probably viewed differently. Due to certain arranged marriages, i'm sure rape was quite common in that the women might not've been attracted to their husbands, or been comfortable with the idea. Women were objects that had no say back then anyways. Anywho, i don't find it funny in case that wasn't already clear, because its not like most comedy today that is okay among certain audiences. Answering the question, no, i dont think black comedy is really comedy. While it may be funny to one person, it WILL be offensive to another! I think you all get what i'm trying to say..
Ooh! I just posted a similar comment under the post for "The Miller's Tale"! I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one to miss the comedy in "The Reeve's Tale"!
Black comedy is only funny to a certain extent. But, it's difficult to know where black comedy is acceptable because anyone can be offended. We don't know everyone's background and black comedy is not solely based on race. A great example of black comedy is the musical "The Producers." It makes fun of the Nazis and Hitler. At first I thought-wow this could really offend someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust or who has reletives in the German Army. Yes Hitler was basically evil, so it doesn't seem wrong to make fun of him or world war II, but there are people who might see the musical and find it hard to laugh because of whatever background or family history they have. As the performance went on I did end up laughing for the rest of the time, but it was because of the perspective I was looking at it from. Therefore, black comedy is not always funny to every person, this makes it controversial. Many topics are used in black comedy such as race, nationality, politics, rape-in the reeve's tale, and all of these topics can offend people in one way or another. Our society will only continue to think that the jokes they make about certain groups of people are ok with everyone if comedians can say it. No one should say that they can make a joke about their nationality because it's ok with them-this is only sending the message to everyone else that they too can tell jokes that could offend people. Therefore, in order to end hate crimes, violence, and humiliation in today's society comedians should try to avoid black comedy because they don't know who is sitting in the audience, someone could truly be offended by the joke.
Absolutely. As a child I grew up on fine film masterpieces like The Big Lebowski and of course the immortal DR STRANGELOVE.
Comedy is that which makes you laugh and it's THAT GENERAL. It lieterally has an infinite amount of material in it, into a smaller, yet still infinite amount of sub-genres.
Black Comedy focuses on laughing at things such as the futility of our miserable lives, the handicapped, rape, crime, our lustful desires and quite a hefty amount of excellent topics . Regardless, it envokes laughter and thus fits the appropriate definition. We can discuss "offensive" here and there, but racial/sexist jokes were never null and void when it came to them being "categorized" as comedy, regardless at how stupid and unclever they may seem. The thing is, like any other piece of art, it is SUBJECTIVE, and it is up to the reader/viewer/listener to decide whether or not it should be legitimate laughter. And oddly enough, it usually is as seen by the laughs generated by Juno and Little Miss Sunshine in recent film critic news. :)
I do believe that black comedy should be considered comedy but to a certain extent. It shouldn’t have any wrong intentions, it should only be used to make light of something but not in an offensive way.
I think it is up to the person to decide whether it’s funny or inappropriate, because people have different backgrounds and what one person finds something funny doesn’t necessarily mean that the other person will find it funny.
But we need to poke fun of ourselves and understand that no one is perfect. If we learn to laugh at ourselves then life would become easier.
Though, I agree with Marielle that tragedies and disasters shouldn’t be used in black comedy. Those topics should never be joked about because they are too serious and could hurt/offend someone.
It's about balance and knowing your audience. Look at a movie like Fargo - it is a black comedy and a very funny one. Take the woodchipper scene for example. No, a person getting killed and shoved into a woodchipper that spits out blood and pieces of flesh is not funny. However, in context, the audience knows it is not real, and it is not presented as brutally real (a la Michael Richards @ the Laugh Factory). It is serious but not taking itself seriously, if that makes sense. Everyone may be offended by some kind of joke, but if the joke is coming from an informed, mature, intelligent place and the audience is aware of that, people can learn to lighten up in that sense a little bit - as long as the black comedy (which can be be quite hilarious) isn't too real and malicious.
I am extremely frustrated for I think my reply to this post has been lost in the massive, unforgiving data-eating vortex that is the interweb. Now, I am upset because I don’t remember what my point on this issue was or how to articulate it as I did previously. Oh well. I shall try once more.
Whether comedy can be deemed as funny always depends on the audience and the deliverer’s attitude when telling the joke. If someone denounces the Catholic faith in a room of Catholics, obviously, the joke will be ill-received. If someone tells a joke to someone with malicious intent, again, the joke will not be appreciated. (For example, if someone told a dead baby joke to someone that just had a baby. Or lost a baby. Not funny.) However, if the joke is meant to cut tension and is just in lighthearted fair play, then maybe laughter will ensue. (Like telling a dead baby joke on a bus with a bunch of teenagers coming home from a marching band competition. Funny.)
I think it also depends on the person delivering the joke’s affiliation with the group being “made fun of” in the joke. For example, Russell Peters, an Indian comedian, constantly makes fun of Indian people, but I guess it can be considered okay because he is Indian. He doesn’t mean his jokes as being derogatory towards his ethnicity, considering that he is Indian, and as such, it’s funny. Dane Cook, despite being a really racy and offensive comedian, has managed to write a set about Catholic Mass which made me, a Catholic, laugh. Then again, he had established that he was a Christian before telling the set and also included such details that made the joke difficult to understand if one didn’t attend Mass regularly, nevertheless write.
So, yeah. In conclusion, comedy always depends on the audience and the deliverer, as well as the disposition of the deliverer and the tenseness of the situation.
Considering the time period that The Canterbury Tales were written in and the type of society that existed during that time, I would say that rape was a perfectly acceptable topic for comedy. Women who have been raped themselves would not think much of a story such as “The Reeve’s Tale” because it would not matter; people would not care about their feelings. This society was male dominated, therefore, women’s opinions were not made much of.
During our time, this tale would not be accepted because people could be offended by it. Rape is a serious subject and I do not think that people would find it funny. Also, women have gained more rights over time and they would be very offended by this subject, especially if it is talked of in this way.
Similarly, while women would find rape offending, there would be a handful of people who might find this story hilarious. This might be because they personally have never been raped, so they do not know what it feels like.
I think that black comedy should definitely be considered comedy. In addition to its perseverance throughout history as a form of entertainment, black comedy can also be acknowledged as a sort of coping mechanism for us to deal with serious issues that are too devastating for us to want to understand initially. For example, on “The Daily Show with Jon Stewart”, various comedians mock the problems caused by government that really have severe implications for citizens around the world, Americans included. Black comedy can alleviate the somberness and fear that accompanies issues such as rape, racism, war, or environmental destruction by making people laugh about something they realize is appalling- especially if they are the victims of the problem.
I believe that black comedy is just a part of comedy, and as with all things is dependent upon your audience. I may not find rape funny in the least bit, but I get the feeling that the guy sitting in the prison cell for rape may find a joke like that to be slightly comical. You really cannot define black comedy because it really is dependent upon those that hear it. I know that I have laughed at a joke that I myself can argue isn’t funny. In a lot of ways who is delivering the joke or tale can have a large affect on how it is perceived. A comedian seems to be able to say a racist joke which we laugh at, but I doubt many of us would find the same joke told by a member of the KKK to be quite so comical. I don’t believe it’s possible to have a distinction between black comedy and comedy for this reason. Comedy truly is dependent on the audience as well as the comedian. Each person can define items in which they believe should not be used in comedy, but they would be so vastly different that you really can’t define what is black comedy and what is not. It is for this reason that I don’t really see how anyone can control what exactly the media. uses in comedy. What I find funny may be offensive to another and vice versa. As long as someone finds a joke to be funny you really cannot say that it can’t be considered comedy and it’s because of this that I believe you are unable to define what black comedy really is.
I think that their are factors that go into defining whether Black Comedy can be considered comedy or not. It all really depends on your audience. You have to know who you're talking to and what things affect them and what things hurt them. But, this also doesn't mean that you have freedom to say what you want their is a line that you have to stay behind. This is like what Christina said rape is not one of those that you just joke about because it's a crime. When you use Black Comedy you have to know how to use it in a non-offensive way. For instance, if you are gonna use an example of Black Comedy for whatever reason you have show exactly what you mean, and again you have to know who you're talking to or someone might misunderstand you. So, in other words Black Comedy can be considered comedy as long as it stays under the line of being offensive and compeletly inappropriate. Black Comedy should really only be used by those who are brave to handle the consequences of stepping over the line.
Black comedy is comedy because, like Marielle said, it's funny. In today's society, we have movies and shows, like Family Guy and South Park, that actively uses black comedy that some people might see as offensive. But often, black comedy is used to teach people about a real life theme. South Park is famous for this, and in each episode there are morals that can be learned. Some people may not believe this, but i ask you to listen closely next time you watch one of those episodes.
The reeve's tale is black comedy and in itself very comical. However, like the shows we have today, it talks about some serious themes. And also, like shows today, some people may find it offensive and often immature. But that's the beauty of black comedy, it makes you think about these serious subjects while giving you a good laugh at the same time.
As noted by jszmolds, no one is perfect and we need to poke a little fun at ourselves. I agree, however, I disagree with the statement given the content of the original question. The things denoted in Black Comedy are not things that you necessarily should be laughing at! It's easy to laugh at it when it doesn't apply to you, naturally, but I certainly would never laugh at myself for being catholic, or white, or french. You're probably thinking "why so serious" right? I don't mean to make myself sound so particulary serious, but I don't find the need to laugh at things I cannot change. In fact, I don't usually think on them at all! You shouldn't let these things make you feel bad, but you don't have to poke fun at yourself for it to be okay! I also feel obligated to point out that I spelled choose wrong like six times in my last post.
ERIK! That balance and knowing your audience is legit what I was going to say! If you presented a racist joke to a group of people who are either descendants of that or a similar ethnicity or advocate for them, it was nice knowing you. But if you are in a room of people who have a sense of humor towards the subject and the joke isn't horribly offensive, it could work.
Like Faith said about Dance Cook and Dave Chappelle, these guys base their entire acts (well not so much Dane actually) around an entire race and just because they are of this ethnicity it's okay... apparently. Obviously not everyone is going to approve of a joke ever, no matter its subject. So when you think about it, you can make a case that any kind of joke can fit the category of a black comedy. All comedic statements are insulting in one way or another and since they are offensive, they're black comedies.
I just watched Zohan (the really dumb, yet oddly funny Adam Sandler movie that came out a few months ago) and in it there is a joke about everything and everybody, all sorts of acts and all sorts of orientations... something was in it for everybody to at least give a chuckle. But every single joke made could be found as horribly offensive too. At one point I even thought that if I was of this particular ethnicity, I would be infuriated. (But then I realized I would still laugh because Adam Sandler is a comic genius!)
Basically, what I'm trying to get across is that black comedy is comedy... because all comedy IS black comedy. Yes? I hope so.
I think that society has become so liberal and open-minded that black comedy is welcomed with open arms. I think it's human nature to make fun of others that we feel are "lesser" than us or more "different" than us. We often make fun of situations in politics, especially. I definitely agree with Miss Winkler that there is a clear and distinct boundary. I think it's unintentional sometimes when people tell jokes about their friends and may not know that their friend has gone through some horrible experience and may be offended. I think that black comedy shouldn't be used a lot, because even though you may be laughing at the jokes someone is making at you, are you really enjoying it? As humans, we've all learned to "laugh with the crowd" and just laugh away when anyone makes fun of us. However, I know deep inside, there is still a little prick when someone calls you something that makes you feel unworthy or is just simply mean.
I really disagree with the "I can make fun of myself" idea. Whenever I see a comedian who makes fun of his own race, even though it can be funny, I still feel that the comedian is degrading his own race and not being respectful. Furthermore, I agree that rape isn't funny at all. There is a line, and I felt "The Reeve's Tale" really crossed that line. I understand that rape was probably a mundane issue back in that time period, but it is still a horrible act.
Have you guys ever watched Anjelah Johnson's "Nail Salon" on Youtube? Actually, it applied to me, because my mom does work at a nail salon, and the things that she said were true. Personally, I laughed, because I felt everything she said was so true. However, I was hesitant to show my mom the video, because I was scared she'd feel offended. Thus, I feel that laughing is inevitable, but you should really keep everything to yourself and try to be considerate of other people. You don't know everything about anyone else, even your family members.
I should say black comedy should not be considered comedy because it is often crude and disgusting. BUT black comedy also speaks the truth and so it gives others a chance to voice their feelings or observations to the public in a humorous manner. I do think it should be considered to be comedy. Being a Pole, I have heard many jokes about "dumb Polaks" that even I find funny because there is a sense of truth in the joke, even though I really should be scolding the person who told me the joke. These jokes have a negative connotation but is put in a positive outlook or said positively or funny which makes it comedy. It also depends on the context of the situation in which the joke is funny. Stand-up comedians always do this, like Demetri Martin. He randomly states facts that is found clever. A good one would be, "I got a new pair of pjs, they have a lot of pockets. It holds everything I need when I sleep." It was something along those lines, but it was funny. That wasn't black comedy but it did state the truth that there are pockets in your pjs and you don't even know why. Black comedy mimics these guidelines.
This is obviously a matter of what an individual believes. One person may find something funny, while the other may try and file some kind of lawsuit (which sadly, would probably win them lots of money). No comedian, writer, musician, actor, or artist is trying to appeal to everyone. If they were, it would be a moot point because NO ONE would know who they are. As soon as someone in a position of creativity starts trying to appeal to everyone, that person loses whatever credibulity he had. Comedians may find something funny (if perhaps just for its absurdity) and it might be considered very dark... but that's how a lot of people deal with adversity. On M*A*S*H*, for example, the characters are in the middle of the Korean war, which was one of the first instances of an American war that had little public support. The show's defining quality is its blend of humor and seriousness; the characters need to joke to get through the day. Another example would be music; great musicians and bands are not going to change what they do to appeal to more people. Do you think a band like Dream Theater is going to make its music more poppy so that you like it a little more?
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