First off, that's a song reference for those of you who didn't get the cleverness of this blog post title. Someone needs to pat me on the back once and awhile...
Back to business. In "Celia" and "Cecilia" we see two men rejected but not dejected over women who refuse them. Jonson pledges his unwavering love and, despite a negative response, sends a wreath of roses to his lady love. Even though it's sent back to him, he relishes the fact that the wreath "breathes" of his love's scent. In the Simon and Garfunkel version of "Cecilia", the man gets out of bed to wash his face and comes back to bed to find someone has taken his place. Despite the obvious unfaithfulness of his lover, he is filled with "jubilation" when she "loves" him again.
What can we make of this love? Is it love? Should we respect these men for being perseverant and true to their own feelings or are they stalker blockhead types (as someone suggested in class) who need to move on and move out? Would the situation be any different if the singer of these songs was a woman pining away over an adulterous male lover? Or is this a refreshing difference to have the stereotypical roles reversed?
my maid of honor speech for my sisters wedding!
13 years ago
15 comments:
LOL at the title! - I love that song! It's in the pepsi commercial :D
Anywhoo..
In reference to the relationships described in Celia and Cecilia, I think of them more as an unbalanced kind of love between two people. The man in Celia really does love the described woman. He spends a great deal of his time thinking of her and longing for her love in return. She, on the other hand, appears to want to have nothing to do with him. I wouldn't consider their relationship with each other any type of love, because it branches from two very different perspectives. Love, in my opinion, can only be defined by the people who partake in it. Generally, it is a common relationship between two people (or even two animals :D) based on similar, affectionate views of one another. For similar reasons, I wouldn't really consider the relationship described in Cecilia to be love-based either. The differences between the man and woman are evident in the fact that they constantly split up and get back together. It's more of a physical attraction, than one based on love.
I only respect these men for their persistance to a certain extent. I mean sure at first,it seems sweet that the men care for the women so much that they find it impossible to get them out of their minds. They aren't really trying to push any immediate physical relationship, they simply want the described women to be part of their lives. But after a while, it really does get old! I don't really think the situation would be any different if it were a women pning away at an adulterous male. I do actually find this to be a nice switch of roles. However, I think that the views of the situation would be totally different. I mean, at times we really do tend to see a male persueing a woman alot creepier than a woman longing for a man's returned affection. << Notice the difference in description. Males are usually more expected to be the ones in trouble for taking advantage of a woman. Women, on the other hand, are usually seen as the lover-type. I mean, females do have a tendency to publicly express feelings of affection more often than men. Men usually keep feeling of affection to themselves, so when they actually do come out, they'e usually viewed as either creepy or just plain childish. Kind of like in the How Boys Become Men article. I do find parts of the poems sweet, but again with the whole "obsession" part, it does seem a bit creepy.
(Gets ready for the sing along)
At least this time, it is a song that we all know...
I would have to agree with Grace's comment during class: in narrator in "Celia" does seem like a stalker. This is simply because he nevers interacts directly with the woman. In fact, I could totally see him watching her from a window... Creepy. In addition, he loves her even though he has never interacted with her. Thus, he does not know what she is truely like--and thus what he feels is not really love, but rather on sight infatuation (I don't believe in love at first sight) He also continues to love her after being rejected. I think that really tips him off at being a stalker. The kind where they eventually snap and retalliate (violently).
As for the narrator in "Cecilia", I do honestly think that he was in love. Perhaps the young, inexperieced kind, but it was really love. While the man in definitely in love, the woman (Cecilia's) love is debatable. In any case, about her affair and then she returning back to him, one could argue that love is apart of forgiving someone for their mistakes. Or, on the contrast, the man is young and foolish and will learn his lesson for loving her even after her affair when she cheats on him again.
Personally, I respect the narrator in "Cecilia" jsut because he forgived and forgot, something that I think is a true quality of love. Just as long she doesn't do it again. After all, you can't help love.
As for the narrators being both male, I do not think it is all that shocking, at least in today's culture. You hear love songs from male artists all the time in country, rap, rock, and who knows what else. However, I am not sure of the status of these men in the Renaissance period. While they are not acting so "manly", I would exactly stereotype them as "gay squire".
I think that the reason why we, as readers, perceive the male characters in the two songs to be "stalkers" is because their love is unrequited. If the female in "Celia" had returned Jonson's love, the poem would have been very romantic and sweet (even though it still is romantic, only with a bit of creepiness).
I don't know if you'd call it love in either of the songs, even though I agree on Emily's part that the definition of love is based upon the two people in the relationship. However, I feel like these two men are more "in love" with the "idea of being in love" rather than the actual female. Even though their situations are very different because in the first song, he is admiring from afar or what Jen said about "love at first sight" whereas the male in the second song forgave his love for deceiving him. Human relationships are complex, and I think a lot of people would call these two foolishly or blindly in love. However, there is very scarce information about the relationship between the two in the song "Cecilia." I disagree that it is considered love just because he adores her to the fact that he would take her back. Loving someone requires some amount of trust involved, and simply taking someone back and ignoring the fact that they once deceived you means you're just ignoring the fact that it's not really love. I think these two men are just really inclined with the belief that their lovers will return their love wholeheartedly and willingly when that's not really the case.
I respect these men to an extent, but I feel that they're both not being realistic. However, I respect that they're both so committed to their relationships, and in a way, I feel sympathy for them. I know that if anyone else was to be in their shoes, myself included, they would probably have acted the same way. Relationships are meant to be irrational and illogical.
Society and experience really molds a person dealing with relationships. I agree with Jen that these two men probably have not had a lot of prior experience. I think that if the gender roles were to be switched, we would feel a lot more sympathy for the female and not approach her so much as being a "stalker". I think it's due to the fact that boys aren't really allowed to convey their emotions as the two men did in the songs. Thus, gender plays a huge role on how we perceive situations.
Both of the relationships in the songs are somewhat awkward, because the men are lusting away after women that seem to not want anything to do with them. It can be considered romantic to a point, such as in “The Knight’s Tale” in Canterbury Tales when each knight was pining for the girl from afar, wishing for her love. If one thinks about it in that sense, then the lovers in the songs are practicing courtly love. (However, they definitely exude the air of wanting to step past the line of courtly love and sexual love, though.)
So, yeah. The men are just being creepy. I’m sure at first, it must have been flattering for the women to be wanted so badly, but after awhile it must become annoying to the point where a restraining order must be put in place.
If the songs were written from the perspective of a female infatuated with an “adulterous lover”, then my response would overwhelmingly be for her to get over him. Maybe it’s just my somewhat feministic beliefs, but I don’t think a woman should put up with someone that treats her poorly AT ALL. No exceptions! A man shouldn’t, either, but I would feel more strongly if the character was a woman.
I have to say that I find Johnson’s Celia to be a much creepier song that Cecilia. The man of Celia is acting strangely claiming love for someone that doesn’t seem as though she wants anything to do with him. Although his persistence can be admired it is over the line that divides romantic and creepy. Cecilia by Simon and Garfunkel doesn’t seem creepy just sad. I mean this guy doesn’t seem to be able to get over the fact that this girl doesn’t seem to be devoted to him as he is to her. I don’t think that his actions are creepy just somewhat depressing. He is so devoted to her that he doesn’t seem to be able to understand how flawed their relationship is.
I don’t believe that either of these relationships can be viewed as love, but rather and intense devotion which the men view as love. Love tends to be something that is a mutual agreement between two people. I agree with Emily in that what these two songs describe really is not a form of love, but is rather just a strange sort of relationship. Their actions show that they are determined to have a loving relationship, but I do believe that in Celia the man is more of a creepy stalker while in Cecilia the man needs to realize that he is not in a true loving relationship.
These songs represent a nice twist to the typical poems about a woman who wants a man but I believe that I would still view the poems in a similar manner. If the Johnson poem was from women’s perspective I would find her actions to be a little disturbing and creepy much as I already claimed. If the Simon and Garfunkel song was from the viewpoint of a woman I would be even more annoyed that the women chose not to get out of such a horrible relationship. This viewpoint would be stronger because I am female, but it would be the same as it was with the view coming from the man. These two songs both display relationships (or lack there of) that I don’t believe show any sort of love. The men of these poems really need to stop the course they are on and change whom they claim to love.
Ms. Winkler- that is a great song. I will gladly pat you on the back. I also enjoy the wording chosen to describe the men and I am assuming that Grace provided the glorious description of "stalker blockhead types" because, well, it's just SO good. =)
Anyways...
These guys have serious issues. Let's tackle "Celia" first. What a creeper! Jonson needs to calm down. I know he's "in love" but he's got to realize that he is obsessing over a woman who clearly wants nothing to do with him. This isn't true love since it's only Jonson doing the loving. If it was true love, there would obviously be a mutual thing going on. In no way would I ever respect a guy like this! He must be either completely ignorant or incredibly stupid. After the first rejection, most guys would take a hint. Those on the slower end would take up to three rejections TOPS. But this guy doesn't have a clue. Not only do I lack respect because of his obliviousness, but also because I feel that his constant stalking is putting a strain on the woman. First of all, can you imagine the guilt she felt at the beginning of their "relationship"? Guys just don't seem to realize how awkward it gets when a girl has to be true to her heart and then once everything seems normal and the guy's back in the "friend zone," they try once more. The girl gets soo much garbage for rejecting him again and then names start flying and it's a mess! If he truly loves her, he'd obey her requests and leave her alone. He needs to start believing in whatever happens, happens for a reason! Geez.
As for "Cecilia", one of the greatest songs to come out of the late 60s-early 70s era, I just feel bad for the guy. Here is the same deal- he loves her, she doesn't love him. However, she actually uses him and there is where my pity is evoked. I just think that he lucked out and was played incredibly well but at the same time, I still think he's kind of blind sighted by his own love and doesn't fully grasp what's happening. Not only did she cheat, but she did it so quickly, in literally 2 minutes she moved on. And yet he still takes her back! That's insanity! You would think that he would see her as a misleading, cheating woman and kick her to the curb... but nooo. I personally think he is setting himself up for another painful moment and I bet you it's coming soon.
Also, I think that it isn't entirely stereotypical for the man to be the one cheating, in fact I think more women do that- well, at least in our society and lifetime. Desperate Housewives, for instance, I can only think of one time a man cheated (Rex?) and about two or three times just one woman committed adultery (Gabriella!). Honestly, I feel that the poets were writing the truths of the time and there is nothing wrong with that.
I really don't think that either of these characters are "stalker" types. I mean, if they were women, i'm sure that they would be seen as some kind of "tragic lovers" or something. I mean, love is definitely not rational or logical (as much as i wish it was sometimes) and people can just as easily be in love with people that don't love them as they can not like people that adore them (does that make sense). I mean, it can range from having a crush on someone you don't know very well to being in love with someone who's cheated on you more than once. Just because the relationship isn't exactly balanced doesn't mean that it isn't real love.
Both poems have a man that is deeply in "love" with a women, and yet it is a one sided love. In Celia, she doesn't reciprocate the feelings that he has for her and in Cecilia, she was a two timing, backstabbing cheater. Are these men truly in love, or are they just blind? You can argue it either way, but if they think that they're in love, they are. The power of the mind is strong, and if you think you are something strong enough, then you might as well be. In this case, these men are in love, and i cannot deny the fact that there feelings may be genuine.
Do i respect these two men and the love that they have? The man in the first poem sounds like a normal person who is in love and has been rejected. You have to admire his determination and his optimism. The guy in Cicilia however... let's just say that if I were standing next to that guy I'd be scared for my life. He seems crazy, especially at the end when he keeps on laughing and laughing. If i were to tell him to get over her and she's bad for him, he might kill me because of the intensity of the love he thinks he has for her.
Okay. I would just like to point out that all the girls who have been putting down Johnson as a stalker type must have had some crushes of their own. And sometimes their feelings might not have been reciprocated. Can I call all those girls stalkers too?
First of all, (this is "Celia" I'm talking about) WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WOMAN WAS THINKING. How do we know that she didn't like him back?! What, so one rejection means "I'm totally not interested, get away from me"? Didn't Juliet (semi-)reject Romeo the first time they met? Didn't Edward try to push away Bella the first time he met her? We don't know the circumstances behind the situation, so we can't interpret the poem just one way.
"Cecilia," however, is a different story. That's pretty crazy, man. If you know that the woman is sleeping around with other people, then you should definitely move on. Love's a lot about giving and getting in return. He's not getting much back.
I don't really find "Cecilia" and "Celia" all that similar. I think it's safe to assume that in "Celia," there might be more going on than we know. But in "Cecilia," the guy just keeps pining over a lost love.
The man in Celia is definetely a bit of a stalker and most certainly does not actually love this woman. As she wants absolutely nothing to do with him, he most likely does not know her very well. Thus, his "relationship" with her is based solely of physical appearance. This is also evident in his obsession with her scent when she sends his gift back. Love actually requires some kind of contact with the object of his affections and that is obviously not the case.
The man in Cecilia is just an idiot. The woman obviously does not love him. Her readiness to jump in bed with another man the moment he leaves shows that she has no respect for him and her affections for him are also based solely on physical aspects of the relationship. He doesn't seem to care about what she did, he just wants her back. Thus his "love" for her is either only physical or he is a creeper who wants her so badly he is completely blind to everything else, failing to note any of her flaws.
The situation would not be different if this was a woman pining over a man. It would simply be more boring because it would just be another song about some stupid girl that doesn't understand that some guy doesn't want her. It is interesting to see the roles reversed but it does not change the fact that this is not love. Perhopas if this were a woman, she would appear less like a creeper and more like an overly-emotional, obsessive idiot. Other than that, it would be the same.
back up singers: (fade out)"Don't hurt me. Don't hurt me."
:)
like I said various times in a "three pokeys and one hole" convo, in general it really depends how the other person feels toward the other. Obviously if i had feelings for a guy and he did those cute things like the flowers and cutesy comments, i would probably just blush and think "omg he's so adorable!" but it was from a guy i didn't like i would be saying "omg creeeeepster". Obviously the girl in Celia doesn
t feel the connection with the guy. but it's still really cute that the guy handled rejection so well. I mean, how different would our society be if everytime someone got dumped or fired or some crisis happened, if the reaction was like "omg wellll he touched that divorcement paper so his scent is there and everythings going to be okay" haha talk about a scary society. "oh it's okay that he just walked out on me, he did it politely. it was only 20 years of marriage"
the Cecilia one is definitely more modern, but really that guy is just stupid. he really sounds like a girl. i mean being in "jubliation" just cuz ur cheating woman came back to you. seriously. he's got issues. ofcourse, women neverrrrr do a thing like that. (cough coughhhh).
I don't really find them stalker blockhead types. They're in love and love can be so blind at times. They're stuck in this position where they can't leave because they're truly in love. Maybe, they'll eventually move on, but as of now, it seems pretty normal...not to the stalkerish level yet.
there's the quote: sometimes, you need to lose something in order to realize how valuable it is. yeah, i admit that cheating is a horrible act and it should be hard to forgive someone who has done it, but it relates to the quote. his lover cheated on him, but eventually realized that she loved him. love is a roller coaster. there are many ups and downs. i think that it is love since it isn't this flawless thing. rather, there are always bumps on the road.
yes...it would definitely be different if the singer of these songs was a woman. if it was a woman, i'd find it harsher. she'd probably be furious and express all of her anger. however, because it was a man who sang the song, he's still in love and wouldn't want to leave his lover. even though i don't believe that all men are like that, these poems certainly show this. but i guess generally speaking, women and men have contrasting reactions towards certain topics.
Sooooo….I agree with Aaron and Syeda.
Neither of these men can be considered the “creepy stalker type” …I mean yeah their love is one-sided, but that doesn’t mean it’s not real. We all have had crushes before (right?) but no one thought that was creepy just because the other person doesn’t like you back. I do think that these men are stubborn and pigheaded because they won’t give up on these women who reject them, but as long as they’re happy, who cares?? Also it is good to see a man deluded by love once in a while instead of always reading about women whining over their “tragic” love lives. Even though I am a female, it’s nice to see a girl being the adulterous “bad guy” for once and the guy playing the role of the helpless lover. =]
SYEDA!
of course, I have had many crushes in my life and majority were unanswered (because they were my brother's friends and I may have been in like 6th grade...)
However, I have never, EVER, done stuff so desperate like Jonson!
If I did, I would be a self proclaimed stalker because I'd know for sure I was a creeper. I'm just saying, what he did was sketchy and only those with restraining orders filed against them would find him normal.
It’s definitely a case of unrequited love on the men’s sides. Jonson pines after this woman even though she rejected him and even treasures the roses she sent back because they “smell” like her. I would not even call this love because he does not truly know her if she will not let him. He only knows the outward display she lets others see. It is rather sad that he doesn’t “get the girl” in the end, but its sweet in a courtly love kind of way. Cecilia, though, is different in his love for this woman. The speaker is in a relationship with this woman, until she cheats on him. And when she takes him back, he thinks she loves him again and is overjoyed. But if she cheated on him that fast (while he was WASHING HIS FACE) and then took him back just as quickly, she doesn’t really love him and he must know that. He is a fool to continue a relationship with her even though she did that to him. He might want her but they don’t really have love between them. She doesn’t love him, or else she wouldn’t have cheated. He might love her, or maybe just the person she was. Although they are in a relationship, unlike the first poem, its still unequal amounts of feeling, similar to the first one.
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