my maid of honor speech for my sisters wedding!
13 years ago
Wednesday, December 17, 2008
Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day...
Sonnet 18 is arguably the most famous love poem ever written. Sonnet 130 may be the most infamous. Is it preferable to have a lover describe you in exaggerated romantic terms, seemingly blind (or ignorant) of your imperfections (a la Gatsby's love of Daisy); or is it preferable to have a love who describes you in realistic terms, aware and accepting of your superficial flaws? Our discussion today on Sonnet 18 vs. Sonnet 130 was so riveting, I've decided to post the question on our blog for continuation: Which sonnet would you prefer being the subject of -- Sonnet 18 or Sonnet 130?
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30 comments:
First of all I think it is kind of bull how people say that love is completely blind. If anyone looks back on people that they have been "interested" at least one of the factors was their physical appearance. I agree that as love grows it can develop into something that is on a deeper level than appearance but, originally appearance has something to do with it.
That all aside, If your beauty is the only thing that is keeping someone in love with you (Sonnet 18) then it may not be real. Sonnet 130 at face value can seem extremely offensive but deeper it is quite flattering and meaningful. So, i choose sonnet 130
Honestly, when given the choice, I would much rather be ADMIRED for my faults than praised only for my external appearance. I mean sure, sonnet 130 may set back the reader at first, because of the descripted view of the dark woman's downfalls. But the last two lines at the end of the poem make up for all of the previous lines. So if you haven't figured it out yet, I'd deffinately choose 130. I mean, I know that I have faults; everyone does. And I'm sure as an old woman people will be able to pick out many things about my appearance that they do not find so appealing. Shakespeare mentions those menial characteristics, and he dismisses them with two short lines, which really shows how powerful his love for the described woman truly is. Many people today in class claimed that the fact that he even dares to mention those characteristics in such a negative way shows how much he truly does care about external appearance. But he only describes her in that way to prove his point and to show how his love for her is far greater than any other love based on beauty or age. He loves the woman for all the right reasons, and his dismissal of the many other characteristics that many people may find important in a relationship, just goes to show that he has chosen this woman by his own free will. He hasn't chosen her because he for some strange reason has an attraction to knotted hair or appalling breath, but because he finds the love they share much more appealing than any other external traits that seem to define the relationship in Sonnet 18.
when someone cannot see your fults it is actually rather annoying. if someone cannot see your faults of which there should always be many than it stands to reason that they will assume that you cannot see their faults wich is highly unlikely. if someone expects you not to see their faults then their darn well not going to change anyof them which is going to lead to tensioun and annoyance.
Following the general consensus of the past few posts, I agree with the preference of 130 over 18. [big words :0 ] Anyways, 130 is better than 18 because of its honesty. 18 is definitely less personal, but because it is so romantic and admiring many people enjoy reading it. I would like 18 to be read to me, but I would much rather be the subject of 130. It says how even with flaws he would still love the person, which goes along with the theme that love is blind. Plus it's just so cute♥
Although I agree sonnet 130 is more honest than sonnet 18, If I was on a picnic with someone who admired me, I would much rather be the lover in sonnet 18. Poetry is often about romance, something that sonnet 18 is able to convey effectively. I'm not saying that I'm conceited or that I would rather be praised excessively about my appearance, but I am saying that in terms of romance, the speaker of sonnet 18 would be able to win over my heart. The sonnet is very "my prince in shining armor" oriented, which is what love poetry is meant to be about.
There's a reason why "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" is such an famous well-known line. On the pretext that the song is directed towards a women, and not a "fair youth", the sonnet is short, sweet, and simple. Sure, sonnet 130 is more realistic, but it is NOT romantic at all. A person can admire you for your faults in a nicer way, and still be honest. If you look at it just as that, you'll realize that deep inside, you would want to be the lover of the man in the poem.
I'm going to have to say that i would prefer Sonnet 130, for the sole reason that it's about time somebody was honest. I kinda mentioned this in class but as a girl i know how we are sooo self-consious. We worry about getting fat, our acne, our hair, and what we where. It's so bad i know two girls who took a day off last week because they had "bad hairdays". I wish i was joking. But im not, and thats reality. It's funny though because guys really don't care and don't notice things like the extra 3 pounds you gained. They say things like "i like you just the way you are" and "oh stop that". Guys just don't pay attention to the seriousness of the situation. Sonnet 130 SAVES the nonsense that a girl would start. He's basically saying "i understand you have stinky breath but it's okay" or "you know i heard chubby is the new trend!" haha it's not the nicest thing to hear, but it shows how much he's paying attention to you. he's not making up a bunch of nonrealistic crap about how ur some goddess. that only makes you worry about ur insecurities even more! And, having that special bond between your man might even spark some romance and opportunity for more bonding! It might inspire you to even go on a morning jog together! Talk about a WIN-WIN situation!
SONNET 18!!!!! oh my god miss winkler you know I hateeeeeee Sonnet 130 because I don't think it's realistic. It is rude and annoying and does not at all make me feel "admired" when I read it. A lover should make you better, love you for every part, but respect the parts of you that aren't perfect. I do like the way miss winkler pointed out how people of different ages would be interesting to poll. I think it's simply a matter of being a dreamer or a very strict type personality. I am most definitely a dreamer in certain aspects, so I still like the idea of a perfect lover who sees you as brilliant as a summer's day. At this point in time, I simply would not accept a boyfriend to tell me my hair is wiry and my boobs are grey. The speaker didn't even seem physically attracted to the woman, so I don't know what kind of a love that whole thing was. Not that it's all physical, but science has proven that certain physical characteristics are important to lovers, like the way they smell or whatever. But, anyways, I still hold the idea that Sonnet 130 is dissing the girl. I like poetry to be flowery, so maybe I just like those kinds of poems more, but I just don't like the way he politely dissed her. It's like those J.Lo's from middle school essays- point out something about the opposite side the shoot it down (yes, but...) SONNET 18 ALL THE WAY (except that it was a possible gay poem... that I do not agree with but that's a whole other topic)
I would definitely would rather be the subject of Sonnet 130 than of Sonnet 18. This is for the simple reason that I would rather have honesty as a trait then flattery.
In Sonnet 18, the speaker is too idealized, too exaggerated in his words. He exaggerates so much that in my mind at least, he sounds very sarcastic.
In Sonnet 130, however, everything is laid out plain and simple. Shakespeare loves the Dark Lady despite (or perhaps even for her imperfections) and I can admire that. In addition, the poem emphasizes on the fact that beauty and youth do not last forever. Thus, Shakespeare loves the woman in Sonnet 130 for something other than a physical aspect, something that will never change: her personality. Personally, I rather be loved for my inner qualities than my physical characterstics. Then at least, I would know that the love would last forever.
I would rather be the subject of in Sonnet 18, because he’s basically saying that you are beautiful through my eyes and I love you. He says things, such as: you’re always going to be beautiful and you’re prettier than a summer’s day and you’re beauty in grander than summer, that makes the subject feel great about themselves.
Whereas in Sonnet 130, he basically says you are ugly but I love you anyway. Even though that’s sweet, the subject isn’t really being complimented at all. So, I would rather be complimented, loved, and feel great about myself than just be loved by someone who, anyway, thinks I’m ugly.
If the narrator of Sonnet 130 truly loved the subject of the piece, he would have described his love differently. There is a difference between recognizing physical imperfections and being disgusted by them. If he really loved her, he would have been more considerate of her feelings and would be seen her as beautiful anyway - he doesn't really address her inner beauty ever. While Sonnet 18 might seem to be a purely physical attraction, it seems to be happier and less of an insult. Yes, if it really is just based on physicality then it is not really love. The best love Sonnet would be the one that recognizes the beauty inside and outside of a person, showing the strong sense of self of the author, the devotion he has to his love, and the true happiness and connection they share.
Oh sure, I would love to be the main focus of Sonnet 18 but lust is only established. I believe all women desire some form of love not just physical attraction that is overpowering, i prefer one who actually cares and shows love. It's not love when you know more about what is going on in his pants than his mind. Shakespeare loves his mistress despite all of her flaws (what he should have said was that he loves all of her flaws), that is exactly what needs to be known for a relatinship to work. Love is greater than any form of lust which is also established in the famous work of Charlotte Bronte, Jane Eyre. The couple's love was sooo great because they liked what was inside.
So I would prefer to be the focus of Sonnet 130, especially because of the fact that I am a woman(this sonnet is more romantic).
Like I vehemently argued in class, I think it would be better to be the subject of Sonnet 130. Although I love Jay Gatsby to death and would have married him at the drop of a hat, I feel his love for Daisy was unrealistic. Eventually, it would fade, for it was built on an image of what he thought Daisy was - not the true [selfish] person she had become. In order for someone to truly love another, I think they need to accept whatever superficial flaws their love has and recognize that although they may be imperfect, they still love them wholeheartedly.
Beauty fades. Someone may be interested in someone else because of physical attraction, but they must also love the person for who they are instead of what they look like. Eventually, the person will become old and decrepit and... not... beautiful. :/ ... xD Sonnet 18 only praises a physical beauty, and no where does it recognize the true personality behind the person. Such a love is not a love at all, merely a terrible infatuation.
And, in Sonnet 130, Shakespeare NEVER flat out says that his love is ugly! She's just not as perfect as nature - a perfection that is very difficult to reach. However, despite all these flaws, he loves her anyway. Which is better than being the love in Sonnet 18. So there. (cough) Haha. :b
Personally, I would prefer to be the subject of Sonnet 130 because I think that it is a good example of true love. Yes, it is flattering to hear someone describe me as the person in Sonnet 18, but that is all that it is—flatter. On the other hand, Sonnet 130 shows that a person can love me for more than just my appearance. They really know me and despite the fact that I have bad breath, an ugly face, and a walk that is not exactly graceful, they still choose to love me. Who would want anything more?
I also think that Jay Gatsby was a little stupid; he really was blind and did not see the real Daisy. His feelings for her were not love. He ignored all the imperfections he saw in her and pretended that they did not exist but look where that got him. In Sonnet 130, the narrator sees the imperfections but looks past that to look deeper and see all the perfections, which makes him fall in love with the person of subject.
Although, many of you claim that Sonnet 130 is sweet and loving, I find the poem to be insulting. I don’t believe that love is blind and that someone should never see the flaws of their lover, but I also don’t think that someone needs to be insulting to supposedly prove their love. If you are in love with someone you may still see their flaws, but it gives you no right to bash the way that the person appears to you. The person’s inner beauty would hopefully shine through enough that you would find that person to be beautiful because of your love. Love doesn’t erase whatever ugliness that person has, but rather your feelings for that person show you what beauty they posses. I would feel insulted to know that someone who claimed to love me could not even notice any beauty of me, whether it is physically or emotionally. Sonnet 18 is beautifully written to describe someone’s physical beauty, but I understand that the poem represents lust and not love. I do not want someone to only see my beauty, but rather to love me for my personality, which would thereby culminate in a love for my being. Neither of these sonnets describes any depth of emotion in either the lover or the one whom is being described. If I was forced to choose between these two poems I would not believe myself shallow for liking Sonnet 18 better. Sonnet 18 is not insulting me without regard for my feelings as Sonnet 130 does. Anyone that truly loved me would be able to see my flaws yet still see me as beautiful. This person would also know not to insult me in such a crude manner as in Sonnet 130.
I would have to say that I would choose Sonnet 130 over Sonnet 18 to some extent. First off, I would have to say that I disagree with Angel. Yes, Sonnet 130 may be insulting if you look at it out of context. Since we know that this poem is a love poem, we know that what Shakespeare is trying to say that he loves her. He is trying to tell her that he loves her no matter what she looks like, no matter what her physical description is, this is what makes the poem uninsulting. If this poem was not a love poem and we didn't know that, then and only then would this poem be offensive. If I were the subject of this poem I wouldn't find it insulting because he is saying that he loves me.
It’s very hard to define true love whether both people in the relationship are more concerned about admiration or the truth. Let me put it this way, would you rather spend you life with someone who loves you for who you are even though they realize that you are not the most perfect human being in the world, someone who is open and honest to you and how he feels about you? Or would you rather have someone admiring you the whole time based on how you look, idealizing you, who is more concerned at making you happy by telling you that you are beautiful? (Man that was a long question) I believe the narrator in Sonnet 130 is trying to say is that his lover might not be the most outlandishly beautiful person he has ever seen, but he loves her because her beauty is different from everybody else. He is not pointing out the ugliness and irregularity in her, he trying to make a point that his lady is not perfect and he loves her for that. He loves the natural aspects in her own kind of beauty. In my opinion, I believe true love is more than words on a page, it’s more than two people partaking in a relationship. The narrator in Sonnet 130 loves his woman nonetheless. He sees her just as extraordinary as any other woman described with such exaggerated or false comparisons. She might not look like most women, but she shines through her rarity and originality. I believe the narrator in Sonnet 130 is more concerned about getting his message through than actually expressing his love for his lady. The message is that appearances are not what matters to him but their extraordinary love for each other and its rarity is where true love is concerned. I don’t label it as a romantic poem, unlike Sonnet 18. However, their love for each other and the way he understands his love for her is very much realistic love. Sonnet 18 definitely seems more romantic, but it is very one-dimensional. His love for her is still on the surface level. The love in this poem is more common on the youthful stage because the narrator seems to admire this woman from afar. Unlike Sonnet 130, the narrator is more romantic because he is in love with this woman. He doesn’t really have a message for writing this poem, he is expressing his love for this woman. He wants to let her know that she is beautiful and her true beauty will always be eternal in his eyes, and he will make sure that everybody sees that as well. (So romantic). At the same time, it looks like he is trying to lure her to get her to love him back the same way. He uses carpe diem to persuade her to be with him. “And summer’s lease hath all too short a date:” shows how he is swaying her beauty will not last forever, but if she doesn’t lose possession of the feelings she owes towards him. On the other hand, I also interpreted this “time expression” as if he is trying to make her feel better that she will always be beautiful, not just in her youthful years. It’s a very hard decision to make but I personally would prefer being the subject of Sonnet 130. It’s nice that a man will always find you beautiful even if others don’t 100 years from now, but it all seems too impractical for me. So, I’m going with Sonnet 130. For me, sometimes when a poem is too romantic like Sonnet 18, I lose interest and think of it as another ordinary love poem with joyous love. I see it as just another typical love poem out of a million I’ve read . But in Sonnet 130, Shakespeare’s use of parody to mock romance and love is definitely very unique, and I would like someone to write a poem about me that is unique and very original, and not just some typical love poem. I’m not 100 percent sure about my answer, but I’ll go with Sonnet 130=)
While I do understand the reason for wanting to be told realistic terms about yourself and why so many people to prefer to be the one spoken of in Sonnet 130 rather than Sonnet 18 I simply do not agree with them. I would rather have someone bulid upon my good features than stick to the flaws I have. Being constantly reminded of the flaws you have, whether it be to show how much that person loves you or not, is simply something that just doesn't seem flattering or polite in anyway. While I do agree that someone who loves you should be honest with you, I also believe that that same person should make you feel better about your flaws by exaggerating or over complimenting your good features. Honesty is very important, but to emphasize someones flaws too much is not the way to go.
Not doubt I would much rather be the subject of Sonnet 18. Call me shallow if you must, but how much more romantic is it? Okay, I get that Sonnet 130 is "so cute" because it tells of "her faults and yet, he still loves her" etc. but if the man i loved, (obviously I am referring to Nick =) ) came to me and said all of those things about how aged I am, I'd certainly be kind of upset. If you are truly in love, shouldn't you see no flaws in your partner? Using Ms. Winkler's example from class about... I forgot so let's say Cristiano Ronaldo... Yes, you may say to your fiance that you think Cristiano Ronaldo is incredibly attractive, (i mean, you wouldn't say that?!) yet because you love HIM and not the soccer superstar, you still see him as the most attractive thing to walk on earth because, again, you LOVE him. Isn't that what love is?
The author of Sonnet 130 shouldn't need to point out the endless list of flaws his lover has, rather embrace them and focus on the positives. No one person is drop dead gorgeous to everyone, but if you are truly in love with that special someone shouldn't you be able to see beauty from every aspect? I sure hope I will...
HIMALI I LOVED THE PICNIC EXAMPLE IT MADE ME SMILE LIKE THIS =) BUT BIGGER!
I'd rather be the subject of sonnet 130, because that poem is more realistic in describing love. Sonnet 18, like someone said in class, talks about someone that is distant, creating an abstract image of that person. In other words, the subject is being admired from affar, which isn't real love. This type of love can create a false image of love. Sonnet 130, on the other hand, is saying that nobody is human, so of course you have some flaws, and I do too, and because of that, I love you. To me, thats much more real and meaningful to me than someone that says that I'm beyond perfect, because its impossible to even be perfect.
Yes, some people said that it did sound a little offensive, but like someone said during class, these sonnets were not meant to be read. Plus, we must look at the deeper meaning of the poem, not the surface of it. Thus in my opinion, Sonnet 130 is the better, more sincere sonnet of the two.
As Kelsey points out, "if someone expects you not to see their faults then they're darn well not going to change any of them which is going to lead to tension and annoyance." First of all, in love, you shouldn't have to change yourself or your partner! If you do find it necessary, then you aren't in love. If you are in love, you probably wouldn't be annoyed by their habbits. While they may not be the cutest, they are unique to your partner and you're noticing these habbits only strengthens your knowledge of them. Just because they may not be "cute" habbits, who has to call them a fault? A 'fault' is often associated with "blame" or some kind of "wrong-doing". However, what kelsey and everyone else is referring to as a fault is neither of the two above mentioned things! They are simply things that make up who your lover is as a person. Those actually in love often learn to, in fact, appreciate these things! Let me paint a picture for you. Say a husband sits at a party with his buddies while his wife is going around micro-managing everything, as usual. He might say to his friend, "yep, that's my wife" with a cheesy little grin. Those who don't love her would undoubtedly find her micro-managing an annoyance. However, those who do appreciate it as just something that simply makes her, her!
Oh, and I'd want to be the subject of Sonnet 18 because I'm very shallow and find it more romantic. I like being admired from afar, I find it a compliment. While it's definitely a little creepy since the two of that poem aren't well aquainted, admiration in my opinion is the highest form of flattery. If I'm already in love with someone I don't need them to write me a poem saying they love me despite my flaws because DUH! I already know that! Everyone has flaws and I don't especially try to hide them so if someone loved me, it'd be despite them.
Okay, looking back on this, I'm kinda gonna change my perspective on what I said about this before. Or, well, it could go both ways. I love how Sonnet 18 unconditionally adores its subject - it's sweeter if love doesn't even acknowledge any imperfections.
But I guess it's just as important to keep on loving even while knowing all those imperfections. I don't really like how Shakespeare made it seem as if he hated himself for loving her, but I think true love should accept flaws in another person.
That said, I'd still prefer being the subject of Sonnet 18. :) There's nothing wrong with liking the more positive poem more.
At first glance, sonnet 18 is obviously the more preferable one, as the speaker describes his lover the most beautiful thing he has ever seen, blind to all her flaws. It is exactly what everyone wants to hear. No one wants their flaws pointed out. Most people work to hide theur flaws. However, love is based on more than physical appearance. If anyone is truly that blind to a person's flaws, then chances are they don't loive them, or even know them as they've been by far too preoccupied with their appearance. In terms of a long lasting relationship, sonnet 130 is preferable because the speaker is aware of his lover's flaws and yet loves her anyway. If the speaker in sonnet 18 were to ever become aware of his lover's flaws, it's likely that he would lose all interest in the relationship and leave. So as flattering as sonnet 18 may be, in the end sonnet 130 is better.
Despite the sweet romanticism of sonnet 18, I would definitely want to be the subject of sonnet 130. The love in 130 seems much more real; the speaker realizes that his love is far from perfect, yet he believes he loves her like no other. I would much rather have someone know who I am as a person and still feel that way, than have her just love me for the sake of love (or believing that I'm perfect). I just think it means a lot more to love someone for her, instead of "loving" her because she's beautiful.
Definitely sonnet 18. Everyone says that when you first read sonnet 130 you hate it and then get to like it, but you know what, if someone says that to you you’re not going to sit there and analyze it until you figure out a way to interpret it as a compliment. I would much rather have someone tell me how good I look and make me feel good about myself than point out what’s wrong and make me feel bad. It’s like when a woman asks a man “does this dress make me look fat?” If it does, does the man tell the truth and say yes it does, and get slapped in the face, or does he say no to make the women feel good about her. In most cases, it’s the second option. It’s almost the same with these poems. If I had to be subject to one I would want to be subject to a complimenting love poem rather than a derogatory one. Sure, in the second one he still loves the women, but it’s not like he doesn’t in the first one either. I would easily pick sonnet 18 hands down, no one really wants to have their flaws pointed out, most of the time they already know they have them.
I'd rather be a subjet of Sonnet 18. In this Sonnet, Shakespeare writes about a person he's in love with, yet reveals his beauty as well. While in Sonnet 130, Shakespeare reveals all of the downfalls of the woman he's in love with. She had many imperfections and was described as this dark and deathly character. Although she was still loved, there were numerous things about her that were not pleasing. I wouldn't want to be the subject of that poem. It basically reveals how she cannot be compared to the sun since she has "black wires", bad breath, and more. I wouldn't want all of those negative things revealed in public in such a way.
Like what Himali said, I'm not trying to sound conceited, I'm just saying that if someone asked you who the poem was about...I wouldn't really want to admit that Sonnet 130 is about me.
=]
but also, i understand the other viewpoints. being the subject of sonnet 130 shows that your lover accepts you for who you are and isn't afraid of admitting that. even though some of the things he mentions is dark and not romantic at all, he still loves her and is only revealing her downfalls in order to show that not everybody is perfect.
even though he's describing her in such a non-pleasing way, the comparisons used is so exaggerated. it's obvious that she doesn't have wires growing out of her head, or that music is more pleasing to the ear instead of her voice...but i guess he's not saying she's ugly. he's not complaining about her either.
although i'd rather be the topic of sonnet 18, i understand the other point.
I would much rather be the subject of Sonnet 130. As is the case in Gatsby, or Romeo and Juliet for that matter, appreciating someone solely for their physical qualities consistently leads to an unhappy relationship, as the faults which the admirer has tried to remain ignorant of cause larger rifts between the two parties. While many people judge someone based first on their appearance rather than their personality, they often realize that a physically attractive person might be quite cruel or manipulative, while a less attractive person that they know could be endlessly more interesting and, generally, a more enjoyable person to be around. Therefore, being admired for two lines in Sonnet 130, to me, would be more flattering than fourteen lines’ worth of praise in Sonnet 18, because it shows me that the speaker cares about me even despite my superficial flaws.
Sonnet 130 is reality and we live in reality. There are moments where people float off into "a different world" and live a fantasy but that's only temporary. Love is suppossed to be eternal or forever, therefore this temporary fantasy doesn't involve love. This all means that I would prefer to be the subject of 130 because it is the most realistic. If someone were to write 18 about me I would honestly think of it as a lie because it is so sugar-coated. It seems so impossible to be realistically described that way. I'd rather have the brutal truth than any lie.
Although the speaker in Sonnet 130 recognizes her flaws, he doesn‘t say it very nicely. While honest with her, he is brutally so. He spends the majority of the poem insulting the subject, then adding in a “but I love you anyway” tag. The way he speaks of her and their relationship, she might as well be his friend instead of his lover. There is no mention of physical attraction, quite the opposite actually. When in love, one might not be blind to their love’s flaws, but they don’t go around spouting off insults either. If you truly love someone it is for their whole person, including their flaws, so why mention it? It’s kind of implied isn’t it? The speaker of Sonnet 18, on the other hand, is completely focused on the beauty and positive physical appearance of his subject. He admires his subject with an intense desire. It is the ideal that he sees; the idea of perfection.
Still, I would rather be the subject of Sonnet 18. While not completely honest, it is romantic and captivating. It is everything a love poem should be: passionate, sweet, romantic, and idealistic. Why shouldn’t one like to be admired? Is it vain to want people to admire instead of insult you, even if it is only physically? Wouldn’t that make everybody vain then?
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